Madonna looks
exhausted, with dark circles under her eyes, as she sits in a
suite at the Four Seasons Hotel in Beverly Hills. She has been up
tending to her sick daughter, 17-month-old Lourdes Maria. Ever the
professional, however, she not only drove herself to the interview
(in a Mercedes sedan), but showed up on time. Clad in a black
Balenciaga jacket and Donna Karan pants, sipping Earl Grey tea,
and curled up comfortably on a sofa, Madonna is eager to talk
about motherhood, which, she says, now "has informed my
entire life" -- as well as giving her an inner calm and peace
that have eluded her since her mother died when Madonna was 5
years old.
"I feel as if I started my life over."
For the next hour or so, Madonna addresses an array of topics,
everything from her newfound spirituality to her new boyfriend,
and from her new album, Ray of Light, to her VH1 special, Madonna
Rising. The new Madonna, 39, may be spiritual, but every once in a
while her street toughs come out, particularly when the subject is
the public's perception of Carlos Leon, the father of her child.
Two nights later at the Academy Awards, a glimpse of the old,
in-your-face Madonna appears to emerge when she seems to roll her
eyes during her introduction of Celine Dion. (A wild
misrepresentation, according to Madonna, who insists that she
"really likes Celine.") One thing is certain: Madonna is
poised to burst back on the scene after her self-imposed maternity
leave. In addition to the album and TV show, she's shooting a new
video plus preparing to star in two movies,Wes Craven's "50
Violins" and "Chicago." But, she says, it is being
a mother that engages her most.
TV Guide: I understand your baby is sick.
Madonna: She's been crying for 48 hours. I haven't slept. The
nanny took a long weekend.
TVG: Your life certainly has
changed, including the way you exercise. I saw you on The Rosie
O'Donnell Show -- you were teaching her yoga.
Madonna: In my 3-inch platforms. I pulled my calf muscles
doing it. It was a really big mistake. I thought, "I can do
it in platforms." I hurt myself more than she did.
TVG: Yoga seems like such a
change of pace for you.
Madonna: I guess everybody associates me with this incredible
sort of workout ethic. Incredibly punishing exercise routine.
Well, I used to do that. I am here to say it is a huge waste of
time. I didn't have to push myself so hard, and I didn't know it.
TVG: I think of you as someone
who is always pushing herself hard.
Madonna: I was hooking into aggression. Now, with yoga, I have
to look inside and deal with the stillness.
TVG: Friends say you are a
more peaceful person since the baby.
Madonna: When I went into the hospital I remember thinking:
"I don't have a baby right now. But in a couple of hours, I'm
going to have a baby. So I will be a totally different
person." I just think it is like crossing the border.
TVG: Into feminine territory.
Madonna: Yeah! I think it made me face up to my more feminine
side. I had a much more masculine view of the world. Divide and
conquer. I grew up without a mother, and I have always had this
real kind of I-don't-need-anybody-and-I-will-never-rely-on-anybody
attitude about the world. You always have your guard up. And you
can't really do that with a child.
TVG: Did having a child,
particularly a girl, help you heal the hurt you felt about losing
your mother at such a young age?
Madonna: It had an incredible healing effect. What I missed
and longed for was that unconditional love that a mother gives
you. And so having my daughter is the same kind of thing. It's
like that first true, pure, unconditional love. It is the first
time it has happened to me that I am aware of. The love you get
from your father isn't the same.
TVG: Even your hair has
changed. It was so severe, now it's wilder, definitely more
feminine.
Madonna: My hair has been every color known to man. Every
shade of black, brown, red, pink. Every shade of blond --
platinum, champagne, golden, strawberry, you name it. I'm glad it
didn't fall out.
TVG: Has anything else
changed?
Madonna: I don't like being around people who are negative.
Like, I used to sit around with my girlfriends and everybody would
be really catty and go: "She is such a bitch..." or
"Can you believe her boyfriend did this, and blah, blah,
blah." I used to be totally into it. Now, people start doing
that and I can't join in. I feel like I am hurting people.
TVG: You've been hurt a lot by
the media. What is the worst media storm you have ever been in?
Madonna: God! There's been so many! My wedding [to actor Sean
Penn in 1985]. When the Playboy pictures came out. When I got
divorced. When my Sex book came out. When I got pregnant. When I
had the baby. You know what I mean? My whole life is like a series
of being in the middle of a media= storm.
TVG: Do you think the media
ruined your marriage to Sean Penn?
Madonna: My marriage to Sean didn't work for a million
reasons. Neither of us were prepared for the media assault. Sean
was freaked out. It added a layer of tension. But I wouldn't blame
the media.
TVG: Do you pay attention to
the media when it's not about you?
Madonna: When something's happening that's newsworthy. I did
watch the Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley interview. And
when Ellen DeGeneres came out and kissed a girl. What I think are
milestones on TV.
TVG: What about your daughter,
Lourdes? Does she watch TV?
Madonna: She hasn't watched any of those things [children's
shows]. TV is not a big part of my life, it just hasn't been a
part of her life. She knows about Sesame Street because I read to
her. She doesn't know who Barney is. Who cares? I mean, she can do
without Barney.
TVG: Does Lourdes see her dad
often?
Madonna: Well, he lives here [in Los Angeles] right now. But
he goes to New York all the time, and she is very close with his
mother and father. So she has family. Which is great.
TVG: How is Carlos as a dad?
Madonna: Very sweet. Very loving. Not as much of a
disciplinarian as I am. Which is not really a shocker [laughs].
He's adorable. He's very childlike, and he's just really great
with her.
TVG: So, even though the
relationship is over, you're not sorry you had a baby with him?
Madonna: [Angrily] I was in love with him. A lot of people
think I walked out on the street and looked at him and said,
"You're going to be my sperm donor." I had a
relationship with him for two years. We were together for three.
And I am really insulted.
TVG: I don't think people
really know what the truth is about you and Carlos.
Madonna: Well, I like to guard my private life. So, if they
hadn't read anything about it, they assume it doesn't exist. I
think they would like to think that I am incapable of a
relationship. But I want to set the record straight. I had a
relationship with him. I still have a relationship with him. We
are really good friends. And that requires a lot of work. And a
lot of respect. The last thing I want my daughter to do is grow up
without a father. I grew up without a parent. You know what I
mean? What's with that?
TVG: How did you put all the
breakup pain behind you?
Madonna: You just kiss all of that goodbye, any bitterness you
have. You just have to get over it and say, OK, what's the best
thing for my child? The best thing for her is to have two parents
who are a big part of her life.
TVG: Who is Lourdes like?
Whose personality does she have?
Madonna: She is both of us, really. She's got a really strong
will and really bad temper. Actually, Carlos has a bad temper,
too. She's also very inquisitive and direct with people. That is
how I am. And she is very charming. And she is very aware of
herself. She is self-possessed. I would say she is a lot like me.
She has also got a real sense of humor, and she is mischievous.
Which is like Carlos.
TVG: Have you met anyone new?
Madonna: Yes. I don't want to say who.
TVG: Is he famous? A musician?
Madonna: I am not saying anything because if you knew who he
was he would become famous. Obviously, whoever I date is going to
have to be cool with the fact that I have a child. She comes
first.
TVG: Listening to you now,
it's hard to believe you are the woman who was screaming
obscenities on Letterman.
Madonna: That was a time in my life when I was extremely
angry.
TVG: Angry about what?
Madonna: About everything. Angry with the way I was brought
up. Angry about how sexist this society that we live in is. Angry
with people who assumed that because I had a sexuality that I
couldn't also be talented. Just everything. The press was
constantly beating up on me, and I felt like I was a victim. So I
lashed out at people and that [night on Letterman] was one of [the
times]. And I am not particularly proud of it.
TVG: With the talk of
bisexuality and the sex book then, were you out of control?
Madonna: Not then. Now, looking back on it, I wouldn't say I
was out of control. I was just full of rage.
TVG: You pushed the sex thing
pretty far.
Madonna: What's too far? I mean, I did what I had to do. That
was my personal journey. I put my hand in the fire and I got
burned.
TVG: How badly? Third degree?
Madonna: I don't have any scars left. I mean, I've gone
through hell, and I brought most of it on myself.
TVG: How did you stop being so
angry?
Madonna: "Evita" gave me time off from being me. And
so it was a really great relief. It gave me a whole new
perspective on everything. I just stopped feeling sorry for
myself.
TVG: I can't imagine you
feeling sorry for yourself.
Madonna: It manifested itself in different ways.
TVG: For you it was just rage?
Madonna: Totally. Then I got pregnant. And I said, "Well,
I'm just going to go with this."
TVG: In one song,
"Drowned World ( My Substitute for Love)," you make it
clear that you traded fame for love. And that it was a poor
substitute.
Madonna: I am just coming to a realization that actually fame
doesn't give you anything. That it can't take the place of love.
TVG: Some say that you're
hooked on fame and that you're incapable of having a real
relationship.
Madonna: That is dime-store psychology. I have been searching
for myself, and to me, that is the search for intimacy. I may not
have achieved it. I may have gone in the opposite direction at
times. But it was my goal.
TVG: You are taking a walk
down memory lane, visiting your old New York City haunts in your
new VH1 documentary, Madonna Rising. Are you trying to tie up all
the disparate phases of your life?
Madonna: I guess so. Enough time has passed. And like I said,
I have a whole new outlook on life. So it was kind of a good time
for me to actually reflect.
TVG: The show is hosted by
Rupert Everett [costar of "My Best Friend's Wedding"].
Are you friends?
Madonna: I have known him for years. I met him when I was
first dating Sean. I enjoy him. And Rupert totally gets me. He can
hold his own with me.
TVG: You even adopted his
British accent?
Madonna: Oh, I was just being silly. Rupert had one. Heh, heh.
Mine wasn't a very good imitation.
TVG: You returned to your New
York beginnings, when you were a squatter in a decrepit building.
There wasn't even a shower. Just a sink.
Madonna: When I looked back to all these places and saw how
dirty they were, how dangerous living they were.I mean, even
Rupert was scared. He said, "I can't believe it." I
realize how brave I was. It made me realize I must have had a
guardian angel.
TVG: What kind of memories did
making the documentary evoke?
Madonna: Memories of people. I went back to a hotel. It was
like a flophouse. I shared a bathroom in the hallway. These two
guys used to sleep with the doors open. I think they were drug
dealers. I realized that I put myself into some pretty harrowing,
potentially dangerous situations. I'm not saying I didn't feel
despair. But I never doubted that I was going to achieve my goals.
TVG: Were you on good terms
with your family at that time?
Madonna: Oh, yeah. I mean, I fought them. My father was
horrified that I gave up going to the University of Michigan to go
to New York to be a dancer. He was concerned for me, as any father
would be. He spent the next 10 years asking: "Are you going
back to school?"
TVG: Well, if you had gone
back to school, chances are you wouldn't have a new album to
promote. How does Ray of Light fit into your new attitude?
Madonna: It's a true reflection of where I am in my life right
now. It's different because I am different. This record is a
watershed moment. So much has happened between my last album and
this album. Between "Evita" and having a baby. I am
looking at life with eyes wide open. This record is a reflection
of that.
TVG: The last song on the
album, "Mer Girl," is about coming to terms with your
mother's death. Your words paint the picture of a forlorn child
frantically running through life.
Madonna: That [song] is an encapsulated point of view of me
and my life.
TVG: Do you think you've
changed enough that you could settle down and get married?
Madonna: Is getting married the only way to settle down?
TVG: No, but it helps.
Madonna: I don't rule out settling down. My whole outlook on
life has changed immensely.
TVG: You are studying a
mystical, medieval branch of Judaism called Kabbalah. Has that
helped?
Madonna: It's given me a whole new outlook on life.
TVG: But you are Catholic.
Madonna: It is not about religion. It is sort of like a manual
for living. It has nothing to do with dogma. It is the mystical
interpretation of the Old Testament. How has it changed me? It's
helped me stand up and take responsibility for everything to do
with me. To stop saying, "You did this to me." Or,
"They did this to me. It is their fault." It has taught
me to take responsibility. And look at everything that is
happening to me and be grateful for even the painful things.
TVG: Do you think you will
ever find a man who is as evolved as you are?
Madonna: Yeah. They don't have to be as evolved as I am. I
will help raise them to the next level [laughs].
TVG: You are a pop icon, a
woman who can command 50,000 screaming fans. At this point in your
life, compare that with being a mother.
Madonna: There is no comparison. They don't love me in an
unconditional way. My daughter does. Just looking into her eyes I
know it is not based on me being fabulous or rich or famous or
talented or successful. It's just having a soul connection for the
first time in my life.
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