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Issue: Sunday March 1, 1998
Madonna, Only More So
The pop icon finds little in her
storied life that's not affected by the birth of her
daughter--especially the themes of her latest album. By ROBERT
HILBURN
I f you've thought that Madonna has
often seemed petulant and self-indulgent in her rise from sex
goddess to media mogul, you're not alone. She thinks so too.
One reason her new "Ray of
Light" is the most satisfying album of her career is that it
reflects the soul-searching of a woman who is at a point in her life
where she can look at herself with surprising candor and perspective
In both her singing and writing on
the album, which is due in stores Tuesday from Warner Bros. Records
in association with her own Maverick Records, Madonna expresses
herself so convincingly that you don't feel you are listening merely
to the latest career reinvention of a master pop strategist.
"I traded fame for love,
without a second thought . . . ," she sings in the opening
lines of the album. "And now I find I've changed my mind."
In an interview, Madonna, 39, says
that several experiences contributed to the tone of the album, which
speaks about the importance of finding and nurturing love. But one
factor stands out for the star of the film "Evita": her
16-month-old daughter, Lourdes Maria. "I feel like I'm starting
my life all over in some ways," she says. "My daughter's
birth was like a rebirth for me."
Madonna has no plans to marry the
child's father, personal trainer Carlos Leon, and is unsure whether
she wants ever to marry anyone again. Her three-year marriage to
actor Sean Penn ended in divorce in 1989. She would, however, like
to have another child. In the interview, Madonna talks about her
music, her image and her baby.
Question: How much richer has
your baby made your life?
Answer: It's infinitely richer. Every day, I'm so excited to wake up
in the morning and see her.
Q: Do you have a nickname for
her?
A: Sure, Lola. . . .
Q: And, does Lola get whatever Lola wants?
A: Nope [laughs]. I do spoil her, but I have my boundaries. If she
had her way, she'd be eating candy all day. She loves candy. She
doesn't like playing with toys, but she loves taking the top off of
every writing implement in my house and drawing all over the walls.
Unfortunately, all of my friends do spoil her when they come around.
But what can you do?
Q: What do you think the baby
will mean in terms of your career ambition?
A: You have different priorities. . . . When my publicist says you
have to do this and this, I go, 'No. I don't,' where I once would
have done it all. Now, I'll say, 'Cut everything in half.'
Q: How do you think that'll
translate in terms of future albums and films and tours?
A: It means I'm going to really have to pick and choose the things I
do. My managers want me to go on tour for a year, but I just had to
throw my head back and laugh because there's no way I'm going to do
it. My lifestyle has changed, immensely. Where I'm going to be and
how much time I am with [the baby] is always going to come into the
picture before I make any decision.
Q: Let's talk about the record.
Do you feel critics have been guilty of reviewing your image at
times rather than your music or acting?
A: Absolutely. I think that for many years now people have been
consumed with me--choices I've made personally versus my artistic
contributions. It's like people act as if I'm the first one who
tried to use image in rock 'n' roll. When is it new for people to
create a strong image? What about Mick Jagger? Prince? And you can
go on and on. Besides, I [feel that] 50% of that image is what I put
into it and the rest is what others put into it.
Q: Your voice sounds truer on
the new album than I remember from the earlier records. Do you think
there's a difference?
A: Yes. For one thing, there was the training that I did for "Evita."
I started working with a vocal coach and I suddenly discovered that
I was only using half of my voice. Until then, I had pretty much
accepted that I had a very limited range, which is fine. Anita O'Day
and Edith Piaf had very limited ranges, too, and I am a big fan. So,
I figured I'd make do with the best I had. But then I realized I had
to make some adjustments to sing those Andrew Lloyd Webber songs. I
needed to increase my range. I did a lot of work with an incredible
coach and on top of that I've been practicing yoga very seriously
for a little over a year and I believe that helped my voice and
affected my singing.
Q: What about the album's
themes? They seem more personal than before. Are they or are you
just expressing yourself better as a singer?
A: I feel it's probably a combination of the two. I've written
lyrics that were quite personal before, certainly in the "Like
a Prayer" album, and even stuff on "Bedtime Stories"
felt very personal. But perhaps I was in a much more vulnerable
place when I was recording this album and because I feel I've done a
lot of growing and evolving spiritually and emotionally.
Q: Is there a reason you were
more vulnerable?
A: First of all, it was after doing "Evita," which was
really a challenging, emotionally exhausting, soul-searching couple
of years for me. It also kind of gave me time off from being me.
Q: You mean you were thinking
about the role and the woman herself?
A: Exactly, and I got to view myself in a more objective way, and
also I got pregnant, and the whole idea of giving birth and being
responsible for another life put me in a different place, a place
I'd never been before. I think I'm slowly shedding my layers, and
where other people have been obsessed with the idea that I am always
reinventing myself, I'd rather think that I'm slowly revealing
myself, my true nature. It feels to me like I'm just getting closer
to the core of who I really am.
Q: What did you like and what
did you want to change when you looked at yourself?
A: I realized that for years and years I've been having a really
great time and fulfilling my dreams. I've been traveling the world
and meeting really great people, making art, being creative. But I
also was being incredibly rebellious, working through my own sexual
repression, growing up with a really strict father and a Catholic
background and everything. I was basically hurling myself headfirst
into anything and everything, . . . being very consumed by my ego
and by my own selfish desires. I got to a point where I went,
"OK, I've been incredibly petulant, incredibly self-indulgent,
incredibly naive." But I needed to do all of those things to
get where I am now, and where I am now I'm very happy with. I don't
have any regrets, even though there are moments when I go, 'Oh, God,
I can't believe I said that or did that' or whatever. But you know
what? I have to love that person too. She brought me here.
Q: The final element of the
album is the overall sound, the slight techno touches. Why did you
have British dance producer William Orbit produce your album?
A: I've always been interested in electronica, techno, trip-hop,
that kind of music. The thing that bothered me about a lot of that
music, though, was it seemed devoid of emotion. There wasn't a lot
that felt personal. So I wanted to take my feelings and marry them
to something that is traditionally not considered very emotional or
personal.
Q: Didn't you approach some
other techno or dance producers and get turned down?
A: I went through Tricky and Goldie and Prodigy, who is even on
Maverick, and they all basically turned their elitist noses at me
and said, 'Oh, we can't work with you. You're a big pop star.'
[Maverick executive Guy Oseary] suggested William, who had done some
remixes of my records, and he sent over some stuff he had been
working on and it was absolutely the direction I wanted to go.
Q: What about "Different
World," the album's opening song, where you talk about trading
love for fame?
A: It absolutely addresses my relationship with fame. . . . The song
is all about me coming to terms with it and understanding what place
it has in my life.
Q: The song seems to be saying
the price you paid for fame was too high, that you needed to balance
your life. Is that correct?
A: Yes, essentially. Fame is a great substitute for feeling
approval, for feeling love, and it does give you a certain kind of
fulfillment. But at the end of the day, it's not what love is, so
you do get very distracted by it and you end up not taking care of
things that you need to take care of. So, you do need to balance.
Q: It seems that maintaining a
long-term relationship has been difficult for you. Is that because
of your busy lifestyle or something deeper in your nature?
A: I think it is a combination. Probably I've had a real fear of
intimacy growing up without [one] parent [her mother died when
Madonna was 6]; not wanting to be hurt, not wanting to be left again
by someone who loves me. So, I built up a wall. Getting people to
love me in a mass way was a much safer thing to do. But on top of
that, I'm sure other people have a very [strange] view of my
lifestyle. People probably look at me and think, "Oh God, she
can have whatever she wants. She lives in a really fast-paced way.
She's probably independent. She doesn't need anyone." It adds
up to a pretty frightening place for most people to want to step
into.
Q: How about your film career?
How pleased were you with the "Evita" experience?
A: Very pleased. It was very fulfilling on every level. In the end,
it was great being able to learn to sing that score, and it was
great working with [director] Alan Parker and [actors] Jonathan
Pryce and Antonio Banderas. It was also great learning about this
incredible woman.
Q: Is there any way you can
compare the movie world and the music world, both from a creative
and business standpoint?
A: It's not very different from a creative point of view because it
is all about finding your truth in those moments, whether you are
singing or acting. But as a singer, I am the architect. It's much
more hands-on. I have an idea. I write songs. I go into the studio
and it's pretty much instant gratification. When you make a movie,
it's just a huge bureaucracy because movies cost so much money.
Millions of people get involved, and pretty soon the creative idea
gets tramped on and watered down or filtered through a huge system.
Just imagine [a process where you preview] a movie for an audience
and let them tell you how to change the ending. You let people give
it scores and then you work your movie around what they think. Could
you imagine if people did that with their records? I love the art
form, but working in film can be a disheartening experience. Just
from my own experience, at least five or six films I was going to do
have fallen apart just since I've done "Evita." They
couldn't raise enough money for it or the actors dropped out.
Q: What film are you doing next?
A: I'm supposed to be doing a movie called "Recycle
Hazel." It's a true story, set in the South, very Tennessee
Williams-esque. It's a beautifully written story. We are trying to
find a director right now. It's going to be for Mad Guy [the film
company she runs with Oseary]. After that, I plan to go on tour,
which will take me to the end of the year. Then I'll do [the film]
"Chicago" with Goldie Hawn and director Nicholas Hynter.
Q: Did you see the line in
Vanity Fair where someone called you and Courtney Love the Joan
Crawford and Bette Davis of today?
A: Yes, and I thought it was stupid. You know Crawford and Davis had
this serious rivalry. People love pitting strong females against
each other. Besides, at the end of the day, which one is supposed to
be who?
Q: Finally, what about the
future? Do you think you ever want to get married again?
A: Marriage? I don't know what I really think about marriage. I'm a
bit confused on that issue.
Q: But more children?
A: Oh, yes, I would love to have a brother or sister for Lola. I
don't know when, but it'll happen. . . . There's a song on the album
called "Nothing Really Matters," and it was very much
inspired by my daughter. It's just about realizing that when the day
is done the most important thing is loving people and sharing love,
so of course I want more of that love in my life.
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